Miskatonic University Podcast 14- Sandbox or Published?

Dr. Gerard · Post by **Dr. Gerard** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:24 pm

Zombieneighbours wrote:A little stilted, but enjoyable. I personally prefer his written scenarios to his keepering, but he isn't by any means bad.

Interesting. Do you happen to know if there are any APs out there with him as Keeper? I've heard interviews, but I'd be very interested to hear how he runs a game, given his book "Play Unsafe" (to be fair, he doesn't think that book applies to investigation games as much) and thoughtful comments on his website. I think I connect with his general outlook, but putting it into practice takes some virtuosity.

DysturbedGM · Post by **DysturbedGM** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:34 pm

Some corrections on those reaper mini's they are not metal they are actually a new type of plastic mini that doesn't require primer to paint them you can just start painting the mini and it will adhere.

Also more info on the Cthulhu mini from that set, He's going to be 8"+ tall he will tower over your other mini's at least.

Also note there is a $10 option for 3 mythos creatures (looks like shaggoth and a few others)
and a $7 option for some deep ones.

You have to purchase at least the $100 vampire level to buy into these though.

So you are looking at $127 to get all the Mythos stuff.

It also may not be too late to get in on that kickstarter they posted a link for those who missed the final date.

Zombieneighbours · Post by **Zombieneighbours** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Dr. Gerard wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:A little stilted, but enjoyable. I personally prefer his written scenarios to his keepering, but he isn't by any means bad.
Interesting. Do you happen to know if there are any APs out there with him as Keeper? I've heard interviews, but I'd be very interested to hear how he runs a game, given his book "Play Unsafe" (to be fair, he doesn't think that book applies to investigation games as much) and thoughtful comments on his website. I think I connect with his general outlook, but putting it into practice takes some virtuosity.

It is possible I am just spoiled. One of the guys who used to regularly GM/keeper for us, should really be competing at Iron GM in my opinion. After the best of his games, i find I judge other GMs/keepers more harshly. Looking back I can't think of any specific thing that left me with that impression either (was about a year and a half ago, and I was playing when already very tired from work.)

You have also to take into account in my statement that Grahams written work contains two of the best short cthulhu scenarios ever written "dying of st marget" and "dance in the blood", which along with the nightfloors and the haunting, to my mind make up the four of the five best ever written.

Dr. Gerard · Post by **Dr. Gerard** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:13 pm

Zombieneighbours wrote:You have also to take into account in my statement that Grahams written work contains two of the best short cthulhu scenarios ever written "dying of st marget" and "dance in the blood", which along with the nightfloors and the haunting, to my mind make up the four of the five best ever written.

Agreed except for "The Haunting." I'm a rare "The Haunting" objector.It's a dungeon crawl with a +1 knife and an "Animate Weapon" spell. Commence the throwing of rotten tomatoes.

I quite like a 90s-era scenario called "Grace Under Pressure." I almost brought it up during the last show, because it taught me that being "on the rails" doesn't have to be so terrible. The group I played it in met for a single weekend, and we had two Keepers for a split party that could only communicate via walkie-talkie. It was one of the best immersive (heh) roleplay experiences I've ever had -- and I'm not usually drawn to railroads OR 90s scenarios.

Zombieneighbours · Post by **Zombieneighbours** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:17 pm

Dr. Gerard wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:You have also to take into account in my statement that Grahams written work contains two of the best short cthulhu scenarios ever written "dying of st marget" and "dance in the blood", which along with the nightfloors and the haunting, to my mind make up the four of the five best ever written.
Agreed except for "The Haunting." I'm a rare "The Haunting" objector.It's a dungeon crawl with a +1 knife and an "Animate Weapon" spell. Commence the throwing of rotten tomatoes.

I quite like a 90s-era scenario called "Grace Under Pressure." I almost brought it up during the last show, because it taught me that being "on the rails" doesn't have to be so terrible. The group I played it in met for a single weekend, and we had two Keepers for a split party that could only communicate via walkie-talkie. It was one of the best immersive (heh) roleplay experiences I've ever had -- and I'm not usually drawn to railroads OR 90s scenarios.

The haunting is what you make of it. If you play up the creepy and misdirection enough it is a moody, and frightening scenario where investigators are thrown to their hospital beds by poltigiestic activity.

Of Course, it can also be a dungeon crawl.

The scenarios beauty is in how simple it is, and the way that even a new keeper can, so long as they have a grounding in horror storytelling, make a great success of it. It isn't masks or tatters, but that is a good thing that first time players or keepers try out CoC. It is very hard to get lost in the detail of The Haunting's narrrative or rules, which means newbies can focus on the basics of horror storytelling.

trevlix · Post by **trevlix** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:19 pm

Another great podcast with some great discussions.

You guys really talked over the sandbox aspect of scenarios, but didn't touch as much on the prospect of scenarios that are much more rail-roading in nature. In my opinion, one of the greatest scenarios in existence, Horror on the Orient Express, is quite literally a railroading scenario.

Do you think you enjoy this type of scenario as much as a sandboxed one? Or am I missing the concept entirely?

The way I look at it is that in certain situations there are times when railroading scenarios are quite appropriate. For example, if you want to trap your players in a location with lovecraftian horrors from where they need to escape, such as an expedition in the middle of the desert,there will be some requirement of railroading.

Dr. Gerard · Post by **Dr. Gerard** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:51 pm

trevlix wrote:Another great podcast with some great discussions.

You guys really talked over the sandbox aspect of scenarios, but didn't touch as much on the prospect of scenarios that are much more rail-roading in nature. In my opinion, one of the greatest scenarios in existence, Horror on the Orient Express, is quite literally a railroading scenario.

Do you think you enjoy this type of scenario as much as a sandboxed one? Or am I missing the concept entirely?

The way I look at it is that in certain situations there are times when railroading scenarios are quite appropriate. For example, if you want to trap your players in a location with lovecraftian horrors from where they need to escape, such as an expedition in the middle of the desert,there will be some requirement of railroading.

For my part, I think both styles have value. In "survival horror," railroading is part of the trope. Inevitability. Characters might do certain things to make their situation better or try to escape, but they're basically careening toward an ultimate onslaught and conflict with the Other. As I mentioned, the underwater survival scenario "Grace Under Pressure" doesn't leave a whole lot of room for sandboxing, but it's very enjoyable. I prefer to run and play in sandbox campaigns that seem open-ended. One-shots, on the other hand, work well on the rails. I don't think I'd want to be on the rails for an entire campaign, but variety within a campaign is great.

Keeper Jon · Post by **Keeper Jon** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:58 pm

Yes, looking back, I think we could've covered the aspects of railroading better. And I agree with Dr. Gerard, (surprise, surprise), that the successful unfolding of a mystery adventure requires a certain level of railroading. Depending on how the clues are laid out, it is possible to have the adventure configured like an outline. Like this...

Adventure
1. Scene One
a. Clue A
b. Clue B
c. Clue C

2. Scene Two
a. Clue A
b. Clue B
c. Clue C

And so on...

With this kind of structure, the author of the adventure designs it as a railroad where Scene One must occur, (and maybe even fully resolve), before Scene Two. But, maybe the author also designs it so that each Clue within a Scene can be found in any order, thus it can follow a sandbox type of format, (although in a limited sort of way). But then again, it might also be designed so that even the Clues must be discovered in a sequential "railroad" order. It is this final design style that I think so many players are dissatisfied with, and rightly so.

Dr. Gerard · Post by **Dr. Gerard** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:11 pm

Yes, after listening to the show I realized that we focused a lot on how to make sandboxing work and not so much on "scripted" scenarios.

(It's also possible that I was a big mic hog. And that I might have been drinking too much strong coffee during the show.)

Maybe we should draw a distinction between "scripted scenarios" and being "one the rails." The latter is usually a negative term, and I think people use it when they feel forced into a course of action or limited in their choices. While I think it's fine to narrow the story's scope and run a linear plot, I don't think players should feel constantly yanked around or bullied into a plot with no choices.

Diplomatic players will signal when they feel too constrained, usually by making jokes about it first. I think it's important to listen to your players and sense whether you're sapping the fun from the session by saying "no."

trevlix · Post by **trevlix** » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:48 pm

So this may be a dumb question, but I was talking to someone about this today and wanted to make sure I was using the term correctly.

A "sandboxed" scenario is one in which the location is defined, along with perhaps some events, and leaves it up to the players to travel anywhere within that location with the GM filling in the details as they go.

This is as opposed to a linear scenario which defines the events and locations along with the order they should happen in.